First, Jesus' execution is reported in a number of ancient sources: Christian and non-Christian. In addition to the four Gospels and a number of letters contained in the New Testament, all of which were written in the first century, Jesus' execution is even reported by a number of ancient non-Christian sources. Josephus (late first century), Tacitus (early second century), Lucian (early to mid second century), and Mara bar Serapion (second to third centuries) all report the event. The fact that these non-Christians mentioned Jesus in their writings shows that Jesus' death was known outside of Christian circles and was not something the Christians invented.Regarding the non-Christian sources, Licona is plainly mistaken. The fact that the story of Jesus' crucifixion became known outside Christian circles sixty years later does not in any way show that Christians didn't invent it.
Regarding the Christian sources, I am struck by a comment Licona made about Matthew 28:16 in The Resurrection of Jesus: A New Historiographical Approach. In that passage, the disciples go to Galilee to meet the resurrected Jesus and "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." Licona suggests that one possibility is that it was not any of the disciples who doubted, but outsiders who just happened to be present:
In the back of the crowd one man says to another, "What is all the excitement about? We have heard Jesus before. What is so special this time?" The other answers, "Didn't you hear? Jesus was crucified last Friday in Jerusalem and he has risen from the dead!" The first is skeptical of the report and says, "Someone got things wrong. The Romans must have crucified someone else."This strikes me as an eminently sensible analysis. The very fact that Jesus is walking around and talking is an excellent reason for doubting that he had been crucified. I can easily imagine that same skeptical fellow asking "Did any of you see Jesus being crucified?" The disciples might have honestly replied "No. After Jesus was arrested, we went into hiding," after which, the skeptical fellow would have been fully justified in remaining skeptical.
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Where does Mara bar Serapion say that Jesus was crucified?
ReplyDelete"The fact that the story of Jesus' crucifixion became known outside Christian circles sixty years later does not in any way show that Christians didn't invent it."
ReplyDeletePerhaps not. But it is quite a stretch to suggest that something like this could become widely known and accepted as true without there being credible witnesses to confirm it, nor could it become accepted if there were enough credible people who could refute it if it did not happen.
"I can easily imagine that same skeptical fellow asking "Did any of you see Jesus being crucified?" The disciples might have honestly replied "No. After Jesus was arrested, we went into hiding," after which, the skeptical fellow would have been fully justified in remaining skeptical."
Perhaps, if the discussion ended there. But then, the statement merely refers to two men in the back of the crowd talking. It doesn't refer to the other as an apostle, so it doesn't follow that everyone who followed Christ as He preached were in fear of the authorities. In any case, it is far more likely that there were indeed followers who witnessed the event and were credible on top of it. What's more, apostles were present for His arrest, knew of the trial at the very least, and the verdict. Their persona presence at the actual crucifixion is both unnecessary and irrelevant.
What do you mean "something like that"? There was nothing remarkable about the Romans crucifying a troublesome Jew. If the Christians claimed that the founder of their sect had been crucified, why should any non-Christian have bothered to check it out.
ReplyDeleteIf a person is seen walking and talking, that is in itself a good reason to think it unlikely that he is dead, that he ever has been dead, or that anyone saw him die. When you add to that the fact that the people who are claiming he was dead would have had very good reasons not to watch him die, that seems to me to be more than enough reason to be skeptical that he had ever been dead.
If the guy leading the movement was Jesus's 'brother' and had a family resemblance to Jesus, how convincing would it be to say that Jesus was dead and the guy who was alive and was leading the movement and looked so like Jesus was his 'brother'?
ReplyDelete" There was nothing remarkable about the Romans crucifying a troublesome Jew."
ReplyDeleteBut the issue revolves around a specific Jew. The fact that it did become widely known and accepted as true indicates something particular about this troublesome Jew that was unique and noteworthy. It is those unique and noteworthy aspects that would compel ANYONE, Christian or otherwise, to check it out.
"If a person is seen walking and talking, that is in itself a good reason to think it unlikely that he is dead, that he ever has been dead, or that anyone saw him die."
Except that the claim is that there were those who both saw Him put to death and then saw Him alive afterwards. What makes ME skeptical is the notion that absolutely NO ONE amongst those who claimed He was put to death witnessed Him being put to death. This is very unlikely. Even if one Gospel doesn't place one apostle present at the crucifixion, this doesn't mean that among the crowd of onlookers was no one who saw Him die and then saw Him walking around later.
And not one person who saw him die and saw him walking around later wrote a word about it....
DeleteReally, Steven. No one? Have you ever heard of the Gospel of John? It is attributed to that apostle and in it he speaks of being present at the crucifixion. So we have one apostle who later wrote of the events.
DeleteIs there any credible reason to believe that the attribution is correct?
DeleteIt really doesn't matter, does it (and certainly not to anyone intent on diminishing Scripture)? The Gospel of John speaks of a follower who was present for the crucifixion and wrote about it. That covers the point of the post, as well as responds to Carr's Mar 4 comment, as well as his more recent comment.
DeleteWhen I said that nobody wrote about, you can't get around that by claiming that anonymous people scribbled in the back of an anonymous book that somebody did write about it.
DeleteThat is just a claim.
Is that claim true?
Until you show it is true, then it is the case that not one person in the first century was prepared to put his name to a document saying he had seen Jesus die and seen Jesus live again.
Anonymous attributions.... in a book where the author is never named...
ReplyDeleteGosh, if we found a Book of Mormon where some unknown Mormons had scribbled on the last page 'We know this is true', then I would throw away all my coffee, in the face of such overwhelming evidence.